Shayana Filmore is a film festival programmer (and my former colleague), as well as a longtime movie trivia maven, first at Videology and currently at Nitehawk. When she recently noted her image being used at multiple film institutions where she doesn’t work, we thought it might be a good chance to have a conversation between two Black women about how superficial attempts at “diversity” like these not only mask, but hinder actual progress.
We discuss how feeling uncomfortable is a necessary step when embracing true diversity (of race, gender, class), and when people feel tasked with inclusion rather than welcoming change, well, it gets weird.
Miriam Bale: You're a film programmer. Are you freelance, or do you have a steady position, or some combination of both?
Shayana Filmore: I am a freelance film festival programmer. I've been trying to break into something a bit more stable and solid, but those jobs are really hard to come by. I have a number of festivals that I return to every year, and then I also do screening for other festivals as well.
MB: How many festivals do you work for regularly?
SF: Consistently, it's been two to three every year. It changes, and the role changes. But in the past two years, I had a seasonal full-time position at a festival, which was quite the learning experience—really great and rewarding—but while also doing other festivals at the same time, which is a lot of work.
MB: We’ve worked together at Indie Memphis [pictured at top]. It is a general film festival, but our programming team was almost entirely women, and leading the team were Black women. You were part of that team. In your experience, in other film programming teams, is there a certain amount of diversity?
SF: I've been very fortunate that I've been working with people who’ve recommended me for other gigs. I actually haven't programmed for a festival where the majority of the programming team are white men. But as you climb up the ladder, and you come in contact with these bigger festivals, then I see the diversity shake up. It feels different, and there are hierarchies. It's a different experience and it's kind of shocking. I think it gets complicated as the festivals get bigger, more notable.
MB: Higher profile.
SF: Exactly.
MB: The reason we're doing this interview is that you recently realized that you were in three different organizations’ photos. Were these organizations you work for?
SF: One, I work with in a freelance way; one, I volunteered for in 2019; one, I was just there. I was at a soirée before a screening and people were taking pictures because the director was there. In that moment, when the photo was taken, I kind of knew that it was gonna go somewhere. And it did. It’s being used very heavily, which is fine, because in the moment it meant a lot to me and my friend to be there and to have that photo. And I get reminded every week by somebody. “Did you know there's a photo of you that just pops up?” Yes, thanks. Yes, ha-ha.
MB: It also pops up before screenings?
SF: Yes, it's on programs. It pops on the screen. Which again, it's fine. But I'll also say it's hard, because I am almost always the only Black person, Black woman in those spaces. At that party, I was probably the only Black woman in that room. Which is just weird. I find it concerning that nobody's thinking of that: “Oh, yeah, it's weird that there's no Black women here.”
MB: Like, “Wait, it's weird that there are no Black women. How can we change our hiring? How can we change our programming? How can we change our outreach?”
SF: Exactly, because if somebody were to see that, and be like, “It seems pretty diverse. Let me head out and then go.” And then be like, “Wait a second, it's not like this.”
I think that’s a muscle that I had to grow when I started going to screenings. I would go alone or I'd go to parties. I'd go alone because I didn't really know anybody or know who to bring. I had to go up and make friends with people, and get myself out of the habit of feeling uncomfortable, of being the only Black woman there. It’s fine because that's just what it is. But it can't be both. There are no Black women around. I have personally seen Black women be pushed out of this industry, or pushed to the brink of considering leaving, or just not taken seriously. It can't be both of those things.
MB: Maybe especially outside New York, I’ve also seen where you're not the only Black woman. Are you used in marketing as much in those places?
SF: No, because there's so many other photos to pick from and people who dress better than me!
MB: I should also say that you’re very photogenic, so I understand why anyone would want to use your photo for anything!
SF: Thank you. [Pause] That took me out. On the other hand, I get that I dress in a very sparkly way and that's good for your party photos. I love to put a lipstick on. But it's not the only reason that the photographer is pointing the camera. It’s because they need to get the shots of non-white people smiling and holding some wine.
MB: I've been on the other side and I understand how it works. I understand that when you're picking the photos, you want to show something that shows a diverse audience. The problem comes when what you're showing is not really what you're representing.
SF: And most of the time, it just isn't, and it's weird. I don't know what the fix for that is. It is your outreach, it is your marketing. But also, people need to stop being weird.
MB: I couldn't agree more. But what does that mean?
SF: I do not come from money, I did not go to NYU. I have cobbled together my experience. Those automatic networks were not there for me. I've had to really chug along, be nice, meet people, and work hard. Then maybe people are like, you'd be good at this, you'd be good at that. So I have a lot of sensitivities to elitism and classism, and this urge to buck at inclusivity. I think a lot of people have to let that stuff go. We're a community. We don't need to be hierarchical. I also think a lot of people have to work through their classism and their elitism, their idea that cinema, embracing cinema, and enjoying cinema has to be one thing when it can be a lot of things for a lot of people.
MB: I think that's absolutely true. I know exactly what you mean. You and I are both Black women in the industry, and we have some tastes that are aligned, and some totally different tastes. You put us together and we're going to advocate for totally different things. Demographics shouldn’t be the number one consideration. If you are just trying to tick boxes, it's really hard for people to be able to develop their own tastes and visions.
SF: And people aren't fucking stupid. We know when you're trying to tick a box. It’s obvious because it's weird.
I don't know if it's like—and this is the most bad faith reading of this, but we do see it and it's in the air—this feeling of being uncomfortable when diverse perspectives come in, this fear of being replaced.
MB: Definitely, but I think some of it goes even more to what you said before, about the higher profile organizations. I think that there has been this huge misconception that there's quality and then there's diversity, and that those are two values that are both really important.
SF: And they can never intersect for some reason!
MB: For some reason they never overlap. They can have some diversity to check those boxes, but not too much so that they lose their prestige and their sense of quality. I think, in the sort of bad math of this, you need a majority of people who have been there for a while. And then you need some people to bring in diverse perspectives, but not too many. Because then you're going to lose your quality. I don't understand where this bad math came from, because it doesn't make any sense. It’s so patronizing.
SF: Exactly. I feel like we're in a position to help people's curiosities and expand their minds. To not just give them the same slop that’s not very good.
MB: I think that part of the problem starts with focusing on optics. It starts with optics and counting. It starts with pictures. Instead of, what's the structure? Who is making decisions? Do they have the support they need? Is there a diversity in terms of, not only demographics, sexuality, gender, but also class, background, age, and regionality… I think that if you're not aware of that and if you are coming from prestigious enclaves, whether it's a film institution or an Ivy League, you're like, “Okay, this is great. This is quality and we're not allowed to just have quality anymore. So let's get a few diverse people in this picture.”
SF: When we get this jolt that we need to be more diverse, that just means that the people that are already in maybe get more to do? Maybe? Maybe? That’s really frustrating and also patronizing—and also probably putting too much on the people that they have at the table. You know, like giving them extra tasks.
MB: Now, I don’t expect you to have an answer to this. You’ve been doing this for not quite ten years, and I have been doing it a little longer, a little over 15. But in the film world, I don't think people really paid attention to women until about 2012 or 2013, and then didn't start paying attention to people of color, especially Black filmmakers, until like 2014 to 2020. Some of us were around before then! So, it was really interesting to watch. It seems like we've gone a few steps forward, but maybe several more steps back at different points. I don't expect you to have the answer to how we can fix this problem of tokenism and false diversity, of separating diversity from quality. But do you see any fix?
SF: I mean, this is a great question. I journal about this shit. I'm stewing about this shit all the time. Overall, I think that there is a general sense of frustration from everybody, which I think comes from the structure of all of this in itself, and that it's really hard to get things made. You need to have so much money. People are hesitant to give people money. There are no full-time jobs.
I feel like something is going to shift, because it has to. I don't know what that entails, but a lot of people have kind of had it. I feel like there's been a layer of bullshit that's been stripped off of everybody, which is exciting. And I think this is a time for finding who your people are. That's one of the best things about the ups-and-downs of my eight-year career the people I've met and the people I've supported, who've supported me. I like seeing their work, playing their work. Those people are the future and I want to be able to be there, to support them, which gives me the drive to keep going.
I also think we have to turn that frustration about the system, and point it back at the system, and not make it about who's in the scene, who's around us, who got what job. And, everybody needs to get offline.
MB: Get offline. That’s another thing that goes with stopping being weird.
SF: Yeah, I think giving a shit, sticking together, and not taking any guff will be really helpful.
MB: And getting offline.
SF: And getting offline. And obviously, there are a lot of people who are less social than I am, which is totally fine. I've also had to pause and be, like, let me find a different way to communicate with this person so that we can come together and connect a little bit.
MB: Not just online.
SF: Exactly, in a real way, just like, “Hi, how are you? So good to finally meet you.”
MB: That's definitely a positive outlook, and I embrace it and support it. But also, what you said about people reaching their limit of being able to do a lot of work for no- or little-money, ends up creating a huge class divide that we're barely talking about—beyond racial and gender diversity.
SF: It’s rough. I will do my fall festivals and then I have to pick up restaurant work, which is totally fine. I think everybody should work in the service industry at some point in their lives, because I think it makes you a better communicator, a more streamlined thinker, and you handle stress a little bit better. But it fucking sucks and it's hard, and you have to deal with a lot. Then, it makes you feel desperate when you do finally get an interview with an institution that you wanted to work with. You feel like you're so close and then it doesn't happen. You’re like, “Well, fuck, it's going to be another few years before that person gets promoted.”
Nobody wants to talk about the money it takes to make things. Nobody wants to talk about the hardships and how underpaid the people who do have salary jobs are at these companies. It’s such bullshit, so transparency is important. I have a lot of friends who do other things; who say, “I'm a producer, but I have two other jobs.” Or, “Yeah, I made this film, but it took years.” You have to stay persistent if that's what you want to do, which can be kind of toxic—that sort of grind for what you believe in. All you can do is your best and that's what I'm gonna try to do with my friends.
MB: If you were a marketing person and you're looking to promote a film institution, and you realize, “Oh, there are not a lot of people of color, but there's this one person of color, let's use her.” And then, you realize that you're using the same person, and that same person is being used in other institutions, what would you, as a marketing person, do to be like, “Hey guys, I think we need to change something in the way we're doing things, because the same person is representing ‘film.’”
SF: I think that's a great question. I think we just gotta give people access to free shit.
Give people tickets, give people invites, give people stuff—people that appreciate it.
MB: Yeah, that's a great start.
SF: Also, by doing that, you're making these places not as class exclusive as they can seem.
MB: Also, put on events that people want to go to.
SF: Where’s the dancing? If you have dancing, you can get good photos.
MB: Where’s the razzle-dazzle?
SF: Where’s the razzmatazz? It doesn’t have to be this way: stuffy. Make it exciting. Make it accessible. If you want to do it, you could just do it. We’ve been talking about diversity and all this stuff forever. Aren’t people tired of just talking about it? It’s always the same conversations. 2020 was such a hard time obviously, but also so patronizing. Because everyone’s like, now all of the sudden, “I care. Enough is enough. We know that we’ve been bad but…”
MB: And then there’s a strike, so now all we care about is our bottom line. We’ll care about that the next time you make us.
SF: It doesn’t have to be that way: stuffy and formal. I think, because I’ve had so much fun in this work, and I’ve been able to program things that range on this informational and emotional scale, this stuff just seems like a no-brainer. It’s like, what diversity, it’s hard? It’s not hard. You just have to want to do this. You have to be comfortable with the vibes being different and more people being around, and meeting them where they’re at.
MB: And that works all around. You and I are not unfamiliar with white-boy-dominated spaces. And when those white guys are in spaces where they are not dominating, it’s good for them!
SF: Don’t you want to be swaggy?
MB: So don’t be weird, and be a little swaggy.
